Bystander's Words of Wisdom

[pexio]

3/16/09:

What the guys all said.   

Also:
Marriage counseling only works when there are TWO people in the marriage, not three.
But if you've found a therapist that works with MLC, go see him by yourself.

You can't change HER, but you can change how you REACT to her.

Since you're still in the house (but not in the master bedroom), I don't recommend NO CONTACT. Obviously.
Some of the guys on here confuse "detaching" (which is an emotional response) with "no contact" (which is a physical response).

For guys that are still in the house, you detach (that is, you get off the roller coaster and start watching from the non-throw-up zone) -- kind of like on Star Trek, when they'd beam down to a planet and observe alien life. "Interesting...." (or, "Fascinating" -- wasn't that the phrase?) Be nice, but nice like you're roommates, not husband-and-wife.

No talk of the marriage/relationship unless she brings it up ... and even then, you do 90% of the listening and 10% of the talking. (And the 10% is along the lines of "interesting" -- not "You crazy be-yotch, that's not the way it happened at all!", even though that might be what you're thinking.)

I'll agree with the guys on here ... it is SOOOOO hard to be in the marital home with someone who looks like your wife but doesn't act like her at all (and, probably, sickens you a bit with her behavior, attitude, etc.) ... but it's preferable to seeing your kids 8 days a month when the courts get involved.

The "good" news for you was that (at least by her admission), the affair was just about SEX, not LOVE. The {worst case scenario} for left-behind spouses is when their MLC wives "fall in love" during their romantic affairs. Those are guaranteed to be at least a year -- most likely 3-4. An accidental affair is easier to break off ... but it's still hard for your wife to "get over" (it takes a minimum of six months, generally, for her feelings for the OM to fade ... and even then, he won't be forgotten). But this is a dangerous time ... because she's probably still seeking an emotional affair (at a minimum) and is vulnerable to another physical affair (PA).

But there's nothing YOU can do about this ... and the WORST thing you can do is use your "FIXER" genes at this point. I'm thinking of starting a "Frequently Asked Questions" series on my blog (gotta get working on that again...) and here are your top 5:

1. Should I tell her it's a midlife crisis?
- Not if you value your life. Some women will realize that it's THEM, not YOU... but the majority of them think it MUST be you ('cause they're not the crazy ones in your marriage.)

2. I thought I had a good marriage. What happened?
- The short answer: Hormones and a sense of mortality. Unfortunately, midlife crisis tend to affect women in good marriages more than in bad ones. That's why it's so difficult for the men to understand. Their wives seem to change "overnight"  (although, in hindsight, you can usually see where it began).

3. Should we see a marriage counselor?
- Only if she initiates it. If there's an OM in the picture, then NOPE. You're wasting your money, and she's looking for an excuse/bailout button. ("We tried everything. We even went to a marriage counselor. But the marriage was just dead."). I DO recommend individual counseling for YOU, though. You will be dealing with anger, grief, betrayal, sadness .... your wife's midlife crisis won't kill you (most likely), but you probably shouldn't go it alone.

4. Should I tell my kids? (My parents? Her parents? Her siblings).
- Early on ... No. The more people that get involved, the messier it generally gets. If they find out on their own, you can talk with them and explain what you know about midlife crisis (Feel free to give them a copy of my book to help them understand -- e-mail me at MLCBystander@gmail.com if you want a copy) ... but don't try to enlist them to "take sides" against her or to "help her realize she's making a huge mistake."

5. How long will this take?
While many of the behaviors of the MLC woman are "textbook," each case is individual. But the best guess that I have, based on my research and the experiences of the folks on here and Forty-Sixty ... is a minimum of 2 years ... and more likely 4-5. Lots of guys say, "I can't imagine going through this for 1 more week, much less another year." I will say to you: You will have to go through this for as long as it takes ... how you choose to ACT/REACT during this time will be the deciding factor in how you SURVIVE it.

I'll have to work on some more of my FAQs. (Or guys, feel free to start a thread of questions that I can use to come up with my FAQ Answers.)

[Bystander]

Thanks, Pexio.

I do have another take on #4 now, though.
You don't tell the other parties until shock-and-awe time. You give her the choice -- ME or the OM ... and if she chooses the OM, THEN you *blow it up.* Because you only get once chance at that ... but you'd better bring your proof.

When my brother called in my in-laws to come and pick up their daughter, her mom said to me, "That (the affair) is in the past." At that point, I should have pulled out the sext e-mails, the phone log showing hundreds of text messages back and forth, and the 2-3 hours a day they spent on the phone together. Because her mom believed that it truly *was* in the past, and that her daughter made a mistake (apparently, the mom had had an affair sometime previously in her marriage too, but her husband forgave her and they are still married; in fact, they celebrated their 50th anniversary a few years back). You make the point with all concerned -- OM=NM.

If they don't believe there is an OM, then it's hard for them to accept what's going on (especially if their daughter has complained about you in the past...)

I know some guys on here will disagree with me about this, but you only get the ONE CHANCE to create this type of disruption in her life. Otherwise, it's like the frog in the boiling water ... the pot slowly warms up until you look around and you've been vilified (in private) to everyone she knows, she's looted the accounts, and she quietly gained enough strength (& toxic friends) to file on YOU.

[pexio]

Re: trying to survive at home

By your own admission, thrownout, you've been with this woman for almost 25 years.

What is 13 months out of 25 ... and what is maybe another 13-20 months, if it gives you the CHANCE for another 25 years?

I KNOW it's hard to be patient. I understand that. But you KNOW there's something wrong with her ... doesn't that make it a bit easier to put up with? It's not as if she is TRYING to hurt you ... she just doesn't FEEL the same way she used to. But feelings DO change. She CAN get those feelings back.

Being depressed is like falling to the bottom of a deep well. You KNOW you can get to the surface, but it's a struggle. ALL OF YOUR ENERGY is focused initially on JUST SURVIVING. You'll figure out how to get to the top when you figure out where you are, and which way is up. She is TRYING to get better (at least she's on antidepressants -- many of the MLC women on here SHOULD BE, but AREN'T) ... but they're not a magic bullet either.

It's the leaky bucket metaphor I've used before: The serotonin levels in her brain are low. That's the "feel good" chemical. When you're depressed, it's like you had a bucket of serotonin, but there was a hole in it. Slowly, the serotonin leaked out. SSRIs (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors) are anti-depressants that help reverse this problem. First, the SSRIs "seal" the leak in the bucket. That takes some time. THEN, the SSRIs help "refill" the bucket. That takes even longer. Eventually, the bucket is filled again -- that's when the depression "lifts".

You could certainly go out and get a new relationship (I don't know if you'll "find peace" -- ask any of the guys on here, dating in your 40s and 50s isn't easy either .... and it's certainly a lot more difficult than waiting to rebuild your relationship with your wife, when she comes out of her MLC). You could just be single (with your kids), but there are disadvantages to that, too. And you're right -- once you start the divorce proceedings, it often DOES get ugly.

You asked "WHEN AND WHERE" do LBS "find our happiness."
Dude: You find your happiness NOW ... and it comes from WITHIN, not from your marriage/relationship.
You don't have to "ENDURE" until the kids are out of the house -- instead, reinvent your life and your relationship WITH your kids.

INVITE your wife to participate in these activities (no strings attached), but if she DOESN'T, do them ANYWAY!

Look, you're looking 4 years down the road already. Why not take it DAY by DAY?

Yes, she's having trouble with her old friends, your two kids, her church. These are HER ISSUES. What can YOU do about them?
Not a lot.

She would be having those SAME problems (plus more) if you decided to file for divorce.

Look, when you made your vows FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE, this is what they meant by "FOR WORSE."
You didn't mind when it was "for better," but honestly, your little pity party now that it's "for worse" isn't going to get you anywhere.

I KNOW you're looking for a magic bullet -- some elixir that will turn back the clock. It doesn't exist.

You want your life preserver? It's on this message board.
It's the message that EVERY GUY WHO HAS BEEN THROUGH THIS HAS SHARED:

My life got BETTER when I started to TAKE CONTROL OF IT and WORK ON ME.
She was more ATTRACTED TO ME when I was able to DETACH from the tornado and not REACT to her moods.
My RELATIONSHIP got BETTER when I stopped trying to "WORK ON IT" and worked on MYSELF instead.
My time with my KIDS is better than ever, because I am giving them the ATTENTION they deserve.

Why should you stay in a marriage where only one person loves the other?
Because it wasn't ALWAYS that way, and it won't be that way FOREVER.

You know what you need to do. Start doing it.

[Not myself]

Thank you all for the important words of wisdom. Hard to swallow at this point, downright throwup zone. I am day by day in the tornado, one day great, the next, why am i here. I am only now 4 months in since I found out, so my ride is either just beginning or it has been for the last few years and I am in crisis mode. I will try my best to detach, although this is the hardest thing I have ever had to endure. Felt like the last time I got dumped over 25 years ago, I never forgot the sting, and it feels eerily similar now. I will try to implement all of what is and has been said for direction. At this point it is the only advice I can get that is impartial. I could not discuss this with my friends, too degrading. I have been a success up until this pivotal point in my life, and I will be when this is over. I just need to check my feelings for what would make me happy if I was alone. So, hard, so very hard indeed. 

[pexio]

3/22/09:

I think there's a lot to be said about wekin1's use of the word "shock" when it comes to the situation.

I think my SIL would have reacted differently if my brother would have yelled, thrown stuff, and mentioned divorce when she first admitted to having "feelings" for the OM>

Instead, he tried Appeasement, which meant that she would try to "break up with" the OM every few days or so (we counted at least six separate "breakups" in the first three months) .. but that injected no REALITY in the situation for her.

If I had it to do over again.

In his defense, though, I didn't shout or throw things when she told me either. I think we were all struggling with the "What is going ON here?" part of things.

But when you get over the initial shock and say to yourself, "Would SHE put up with ME acting like this?", then you must take ACTION.

Because the experience of my brother -- and dozens of other LBS's on here -- have shown that you MUST take a stand in order to have ANY chance of getting through to them.

[pexio]

3/23/09:

Along with my "infidelity facts" thread, I'm also doing some research (behind the scenes) about the whole "impact on the kids" thing.

I came across an interesting dissertation that talked about the effect of infidelity on adult children ... but it got me thinking.

Last summer, after my SIL's affair was revealed, I heard a rumor that her mom had (at least an EA) affair at some point in the past. She and my SIL's dad stayed together (and they've now been married 50+ years). But I found it interesting that my SIL's brother had an affair (an accidental one), another sister had a child out of wedlock (they went on to marry and have more kids) and then there is my SIL, who is in a romantic affair and divorcing my brother.

The dissertation talked about the impact of the infidelity on the children, and how it broke the "trust" between them and their parents, whose relationships they saw as "ideal." I'll have to find the exact wording, but it also said something about how it impacted the adult child's view of fidelity in relationships.

It's my belief that the damage being done to children isn't a result of DIVORCE, it's a result of the parents loss of commitment to the MARRIAGE RELATIONSHIP itself. The divorce is just the obvious "symptom" -- the statistics back up the fact that children whose parents had an "amicable" divorce are STILL more likely to get divorced themselves. (The whole idea of "high conflict" divorces being "worse" on the children is a misnomer, I believe ... any divorce is disruptive, because you lose the intact mother/father unit.)

However, which is WORSE for children -- for one parent to stay in the relationship that is ALREADY damaged (again, going back to my analogy about the abused woman who stays in the marriage) ... or to stand up for fidelity?

Again: For guys whose wives are in crisis or transition, but there is no obvious OM, I think the answer is clear: Stay. Don't file.

But when there is an OM, I still have to advocate TAKING ACTION -- if for no other reason than it sometimes causes the women to rethink things when the reality of the situation becomes clearer.

[pexio]

The OM as a drug:

I'm printing out some handouts for a therapist and came across this one --
"DSM-IV-TR Criteria for Substance Dependence."

It's a checklist he devised to assess substance abuse dependence, but it really could apply to women who are using their OMs as a drug. (I have replaced "the substance" -- i.e., "drug or alcohol" with "the OM")

Substance dependence is defined as a pattern of substance use, leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by 3 or more of the following at any time during a 12-month period:

1) TOLERANCE, as defined by EITHER of the following:
-- A need for markedly increased amounts of the OM to achieve intoxication or desired effect (Bystander note: i.e., "good feelings")
-- Markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of the OM (Bystander note: requires more time with the OM to achieve the same good feelings)

2) WITHDRAWAL, as manifested by EITHER of the following:
-- The characteristic withdrawal syndrome for the OM (Bystander note: ILYBIMILWY, anger towards spouse, feelings of hopelessness or depression)
-- The same substance (the OM) is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms (Bystander note: I just can't be apart from him! despite negative consequences)

3) The OM is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended (Bystander note: "We're just friends" or my SIL's "We're just going to be friends" turns into a full-fledged affair)

4) There is a persistent desire or unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control OM use (Bystander note: My SIL "broke up with" the OM more than a half dozen times over the first 3 months, but couldn't "quit" him)

5) A great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain, use, or recover (Bystander note: Text messages, secret meetings, secret phone calls)

6) Important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up/reduced (Bystander note: 'nuff said)

7) The OM use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem likely to have been caused by the substance (OM). (Bystander note: This recognition often comes further alone in the affair, but she can't quit 'cause she's hooked.)

The SECOND part of the questionnaire is DSM-IV-TR Criteria for Substance Abuse

Bystander note: No comments required!

Substance abuse is defined as pattern of substance (OM) use leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by 1 or more of the following, occurring within a 12-month period:

1) Recurrent OM use resulting in a failure to fulfill major role obligations at work, school, or home

2) Recurrent OM use in situation in which it is physically hazardous

3) Recurrent OM-related legal problems

4) Continued OM use despite having persistent or recurrent social or interpersonal problems caused or exacerbated by the effects of the OM.

[pexio]

Re:Some myths from an MLC'ers POV:

While you are in this whirlwind of love, at no time do you not realise the gravity of what you are doing.  I expected to be found out long before I was and fully expected to be thrown out and cut off.  It was a realistic expectation in the light of everything and I was prepared for, though afraid of, that.  I knew how I would feel in the reverse situation and didn't expect any less.

I thought this was the most interesting part of Belle's story. It points to the importance of BUSTING the affair and then asking for a CHOICE: You or the OM, with no backing down, no appeasement. When you DO find out about an affair and DON'T act, your W may be confused as to WHY you're NOT flipping out! Why WON'T you fight for her?

These women don't get that WHEN YOU ARE FACED WITH THE SITUATION, what seemed like black-and-white suddenly has lots of grey in it. You hate the BEHAVIOR, but still love the PERSON (especially the person you've known for many years).

Early on in the discovery of her affair, I think my SIL was looking for someone to end the affair FOR HER. She didn't have the strength to do it herself, and the more times she had to be broken down (although she was never down to "bare metal," as Wekin1 puts it), the stronger she got from each encounter ... and the more emboldened the OM became. It was Romeo & Juliet -- everyone was conspiring to keep them apart, which fueled the romance.

When you find out about an affair, you must act DECISIVELY and clearly communicate the "Me or him" boundary. Your W will initially HATE you for it, but she secretly WANTS you to help her fight these feelings. If you waffle at all, you're basically driving the alcoholic to the bar and asking them not to drink.

[pexio]

4/24/09:

I know what you're saying, but your ascribing RATIONAL thoughts to an EMOTIONAL situation.

You have to understand that your EX did not MEAN to get involved in an affair. The deeper she got into it, the harder it was to get out. So she tried to HURT YOU to make herself UNLOVABLE in your eyes -- to make it EASIER on you (at least that was her distorted thinking).

When you have feelings for someone else, and you've been faithful your whole life, that's not easy to deal with. It causes what they call "cognitive dissonance" -- manifested in the inability to live 2 separate lives at the same time. (I always think about the Seinfeld episode where George's "two lives" come together -- "WORLDS COLLIDE" he called it. He had "independent George," which was how he was with his friends, and "relationship George," which is how he was when he was with Susan (his fiancee, who ended up dying from poisened envelope glue on their wedding invitations). He didn't want the two "worlds" to meet -- but eventually they did.)

That is what these women fear. They TRY to keep their two worlds separate -- the life they have with YOU, and the SECRET LIFE they have with their affair partner. Eventually, it comes to a head, and they must decide ... because they can't live both lives at the same time ... at least not forever. Some women choose the affair partner ... others choose their spouse. But it DOES force a choice.

Your wife tried to keep the 2 worlds apart for as long as she could (longer than YOU know). But eventually, her hormones and the affair won out. It wasn't MEANT to hurt you. In her head, she says she "tried" to work it out with you. But EVERYTHING I know about affairs says that AS LONG AS THERE IS A THIRD PARTY IN THE RELATIONHSHIP, YOUR MARRIAGE IS NOT A PRIORITY. You didn't stand a chance -- unless she was willing to get rid of HIM. And for whatever reason, she couldn't.

STOP second-guessing the past, Trying. It will only eat you up. At some point, to truly move forward, you are going to have to ACCEPT that she is ill, and FORGIVE her for the damage she has done to you.

She did not INTEND to have an affair. But it happened. And she couldn't be HONEST with you about it, because you (whose opinion meant so much to her) would think less of HER. She couldn't deal with that. . So instead, she made it seem like YOU were the issue ("she wouldn't have strayed if you were meeting all her needs") to be able to justify her behavior. And once she had chosen the OM's world, she had to try to destroy you, to keep from feeling guilt about what she had done. (She continues that behavior even now, as evidenced by her most recent e-mail to you.)

What she did was the ultimate betrayal. There's no question.
But she wasn't thinking rationally -- and she STILL isn't!

But you're still thinking too emotionally about the situation too.
The question is: CAN YOU FORGIVE HER for what she's done? (Not EXCUSE it. NOT RATIONALIZE IT. Recognize that she is sick ... and forgive her.)

 

Until you are able to do that, you cannot move forward ... no matter how much you try.

[pexio]

Detachment

Scotty: You don't seem to get that you detach FOR YOU  -- not for HER and not for what kind of reaction you expect to get out of her!!!

I don't think some of you get WHAT EXACTLY DETACHMENT IS.

Detachment is NOT ignoring her. It's NOT necessarily No Contact (especially for guys still living with their aliens). It's NOT indifference. It's NOT being a doormat.

Here's a refresher:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/14712-developing-detachment/

Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow people, places or things the freedom to be themselves.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix another person from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving another person "the space'' to be herself.
*  Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with people.
*  Willingness to accept that you cannot change or control a person, place or thing.
*  Developing and maintaining of a safe, emotional distance from someone whom you have previously given a lot of power to affect your emotional outlook on life.
*  Establishing of emotional boundaries between you and those people you have become overly enmeshed or dependent with in order that all of you might be able to develop your own sense of autonomy and independence.
*  Attention CaS Process by which you are free to feel your own feelings when you see another person falter and fail and not be led by guilt to feel responsible for their failure or faltering.
*  Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing or controlling.
*  Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective and recognizing that there is a need to back away from the uncontrollable and unchangeable realities of life.
* Ability to let people you love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to practice tough love and not give in when they come to you to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
* Ability to allow people to be who they "really are'' rather than who you "want them to be.''
* Ability to avoid being hurt, abused, taken advantage of by people who in the past have been overly dependent or enmeshed with you.

FINALLY, THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE:

* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to experience greater emotional devastation from having hung on beyond a reasonable and rational point.

Excerpts from "What are the negative effects of NOT detaching?"

Will most probably put off making a decision and following through on it, if you rationally recognize your relationship with a person, place or thing is unhealthy and the only recourse left is to get out of the relationship.
* Will be so driven by guilt and emotional dependence that the sickness in the relationship will worsen.
* Run the risk of losing your autonomy and independence and derive your value or worth solely from the unhealthy relationship you continue in with the unhealthy person, place or thing.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE READ THE WHOLE ARTICLE.

Then print out this list and post it somewhre you will see it often:

"Letting Go''
* To "let go'' does not mean to stop caring; it means I can't do it for someone else.
* To "let go'' is not to cut myself off; it's the realization I can't control another.
* To "let go'' is not to enable, but to allow learning from natural consequences.
* To "let go'' is to admit powerlessness, which means the outcome is not in my hands.
* To "let go'' is not to try to change or blame another; it's to make the most of myself.
* To "let go'' is not to care for, but to care about.
* To "let go'' is not to fix, but to be supportive.
* To "let go'' is not to judge, but to allow another to be a human being.
* To "let go'' is not to be in the middle arranging all the outcomes, but to allow others to affect their own destinies.
* To "let go'' is not to be protective; it's to permit another to face reality.
* To "let go'' is not to deny, but to accept.
* To "let go'' is not to nag, scold or argue, but instead to search out my own shortcomings and correct them.
* To "let go'' is not to criticize and regulate anybody, but to try to become what I dream I can be.
* To "let go'' is not to adjust everything to my desires, but to take each day as it comes and cherish myself in it.
* To "let go'' is to not regret the past, but to grow and live for the future.
* To "let go'' is to fear less and love myself more.

[pexio]

http://womensinfidelity.com/

She didn't "feel better" when she gave up the OM (see description below), so she kept looking for way to achieve that feeling. The toxic friend -- and barhopping -- even if there isn't an OM at the current moment -- reinforce those feelings.

Key Excerpts

Women at Stage 3 are involved in affairs, ending affairs, or contemplating divorce. Women who are having affairs experience feelings unlike anything they have experienced before. They feel “alive” again and many believe they have found their soul mates. These women are experiencing feelings associated with a chemically altered state, or what is typically referred to as being "in love."

...

The reason many women will give for their desire to separate is a “search for self.” They convince their husbands that they might be able to save their marriage if they can just have time to themselves. They tell their husbands that time apart is the only hope of improving their current situation. Most think that eventually their confusion will disappear.  They think they will eventually know with certainty whether they want to stay married or get divorced...

Women at Stage 3 may also be experiencing the ending of an extramarital affair, and the ending may not have been their decision...They are typically unaware that they are experiencing chemical withdrawal due to sudden changes in their brain chemistry. As a result, many will feel that they have missed their chance at happiness due to their indecisiveness.

Believing they have become more aware of what they want and need from a mate, women at this stage will often place the utmost importance on finding a "new" relationship that will give them the feeling they experienced in their affairs. A new relationship with a new partner will also represent a clean slate, a chance for these women to regain their “good girl” status. Some women will search for new partners during their separations. Others will return to their marriages, but not emotionally and still continue to search.

[pexio]

Re:Time to Throw in the Towel?

Right on, pghobbsx!

You guys have heard me say on here LOTS OF TIMES that you likely will get a second chance.

WHAT THAT DOES NOT MEAN IS THAT YOU SHOULD LIVE YOUR LIFE IN LIMBO, WAITING FOR THAT TO HAPPEN.
No, you must move forward. Sometimes that means getting a divorce (whether it was your choice or not).

But pghobbsx is right: Women DO want what they don't have ... so the sooner YOU move on with YOUR life, the better off YOU will be, and the LESS DAMAGE you will let her do in the meantime.

I've said quite frequently that the chances for reconciliation are LOW from the LBS's side of things, because by the time the X has come back around, she's done so much damage TO YOU that you don't WANT her back! (Even if she WANTED to come back!)

So if you DETACH EARLY in the process, and don't let her moods / anger / issues get to you (basically let her spin around on her own), then you'll be in a much better position when she finally does wind down from MLC.

Jim & Lozuk: You likely WILL get your second chance. And it will come when YOU least expect it ... probably right around the time you finally put her out of your heart and move forward (REALLY!). It's almost like they can sense it ... [And yes, I can tell when you're just "saying" it and when you really "feel it" -- although the more you SAY IT, the closer you will get to FEELING IT.]

[pexio]

Re:Why no shame about the OM

Olds:

Good for you. The first step is realizing that it's not YOU, it's HER.

But I disagree with letting her file. We've had quite a discussion on this around here (you'll find it as you dig through the massive volume of posts), but as bbhelp often puts it: "He who files first, files best."

When YOU file, you show YOU'RE SERIOUS about this.

Another Path Partner truism is "OM=NO MARRIAGE"

As long as she's got the other guy, there IS NO HOPE FOR YOUR MARRIAGE, sorry to say.
So the counseling will be a waste of time.

UNLESS, the SHOCK of you actually FILING makes her reconsider her actions. (Unlikely if she's involved in a romantic affair. I'm going to have to start a thread of "Bystander's Links" so you can find the article by Dr. Frank Pittman that describes the different types of affairs. Romantic ones are where she's "In Love With" the OM -- who, by definition is a "user/loser" -- any guy that would go after a married woman is ...

SO, if YOU file for divorce, you can ask for FULL custody of the kids, possession of the house, and for her to pay child support ... plus her share of those bills you've alluded to. Without a court order, she doesn't have to give you ANY money.

Think about it.

And LISTEN to the guys on here ... they've got a LOT of insight.
(I'm a girl, but I have special permission from the guys to post in the Men's forum.   
My brother got "the speech" 13 months ago -- from my SIL, who was my best friend until she took up with the OM, who was a loser former friend of mine too. Ugh.)

[pexio]

5/12/09:

StayHopeful:

You must be in COMPLETE CONTROL of your emotions tomorrow. Stick to the facts.

What she is asking for is what they ALWAYS ask for. The usual list is:
1) Custody of the kids
2) Child support
3) Alimony
4) Possession of the family home until the assets are divided
5) Sometimes for YOU to pay THEIR court costs, even if they were the ones that filed (especially if you make more money).

That DOES NOT mean that they get it. They usually get 1, 2 and 4 pretty easily. Sometimes #3 if there is a wide disparity in income.

BE CALM IN COURT. Present yourself well. Know that the BATTLE usually comes next ... not at the temporary hearing.

Your attorney will likely ask for reasonable visitation (Wilson v Wilson at a minimum; sometimes joint), joint LEGAL custody (you get a say in decision making). Sometimes you can ask that the OM not have contact with any minor children and/or bot be in the marital home.

GUYS: THIS IS WHY IT IS IMPORTANT TO BE THE ONE TO FILE. THEN *YOU* GET TO BE THE ONE TO ASK FOR WHAT YOU WANT.*

If YOU file, you get to ask for #1 and #4 (at a minimum), and if you have #1, then #2 is usually less (if any at all).

Remember, SH: Stay calm. Focus on the facts. Let your lawyer do the talking.

Then report back tomorrow with your results.

[pexio]

Re:Desperate for help?

No, because the point of the books is to help YOU, not to SAVE the marriage or the relationship.

Look, she's going to do what she's going to do. Really, you can't do much to STOP HER. (Hundreds of guys on here have tried, with little success.    )

But you can help bring a little REALITY into her life. If she WANTS a new life, she is going to have to make some CHANGES. (And no, not taking the kids and going to live with mommy.) Like only seeing her kids when the judge says so (visitation). Paying YOU child support.

Christine's book, in particular, can help you express some of the information that YOU need to get out there. Like, when she brings up the marriage/relationship, YOU OUTLINE YOUR BOUNDARIES.

"Look, I'm sorry you're feeling this way. But it's completely unacceptable for there to be a third person -- OF ANY KIND -- in our marriage. If you're not 'in it to win it,' then I think we should divorce. I'd like you to stay and work things out, but I'm not going to put up with you screwing around again. I'll give you time and space, but I won't give you permission to date, and I'm not going to allow our children to be exposed to the lowlifes and scumbags who would take up with a married woman. So if you're not in this relationship 100%, pack your bags now, because there's no room for any more affairs in this marriage. If you're unhappy, do what you need to do. The kids and I will be fine."

Instead, you're approaching this from a position of weakness. She doesn't know what SHE wants, but she knows SHE wants to be the one in control of the situation. SHE wants to decide what happens next.

As Christine writes (p. 57): "Your wife values what she can't have. She also places less or no value on what she can have."

Christine also outlines a pretty good program for Taking Care of Your Own Needs (step four). The more time and energy you spend on DWELLING on this situation, the harder it will be for you. Get to the lawyer, formulate your plan, and then act.

OR you can keep having this same conversation with your wife every few days, posting about it, and asking for all of our recommendations. It's your choice.   

The IRONIC thing is, the STRONGER YOU BECOME IN THIS, the more ATTRACTIVE you are! The weaker, whinier, and more dependent you are, the LESS attractive YOU are!